This week on No Restraints with Rudy Caseres my guest is Kelly Davis. Kelly Davis's lived experience with mental health diagnoses and trauma are at the center of her drive for transforming how we support individuals and change systems and services. She writes and speaks about her experience and ideas around the US and has developed trainings for young people rooted in empowerment and positive psychology. In 2018, she helped plan and lead the first national youth-run and youth-focused mental health convergence funded by SAMHSA. Kelly is currently training to become a certified applied positive psychology coach. Topics discussed include eating disorders, body image, bipolar, suicide, substance abuse, and advocacy.
Follow Kelly Davis on Facebook here and on Instagram here.
See you again next week for an all-new No Restraints with Rudy Caseres. Wednesdays 12pm PT/3pm ET. Watch live at Facebook.com/RudyCaseres and, of course, watch all past episodes at NoRestraints.net.
Because it's for your own good.
Rudy Caseres: Hey everyone, welcome to a brand new episode of no restraints with Rudy Caseres. I'm Rudy Caseres obviously, this is episode 41 I just realized last night going on to no restraints.net where you can see all past episodes that there was two episode 12. I just totally screwed up. So good on me for that. This is episode 40. Last week was episode 39 with Melody Moezzi, which I got to talk to her right in San Diego, in person. So that was awesome. Hey Heather, I appreciate you. You probably got the notification. So shout out to you for the early comers. My guest, Kelly Davis, is gonna talk about all the cool stuff that she has going on in her world and I'm a big admirer of her, pretty much every guest I have on here except for like one or two to be honest, I've been a big admirer of so without further ado, let me bring on my guests. And if you're watching this live, obviously let us know you're here. Let us know where you're from. Ask questions for Kelly. If you have questions about suicide prevention, if you have questions about bipolar eating disorders, body dysmorphic disorder, you name it, she is the person. Without further ado, let me bring her on and tell the whole world the whole no restraints. Universe, galaxy solar system. Who is Kelly Davis.
Kelly Davis: Oh, wow. Awesome. Hi everyone. My name is Kelly. I'm really excited to be here with you all today. A little about me. So I am in Washington DC right now. I am a mental health advocate. I talk about my lived experience. I do some more policy oriented work, my care lot about youth mental health, college mental health. I'm a yoga teacher. I do all kinds of sorts of stuff. But at the core of everything that I do and all of my beliefs are, the idea is that people with lived experience should be in leading roles and all of the decisions that we make and that there's something extremely, extremely valuable about that lived experience and many of us can really help ourselves and one another. And that kind of, for me, it's through all of the different areas that I'm involved in.
Rudy Caseres: Now you're one of those few people. I can't find anyone to say a bad thing about you. I mentioned your name, I see you on, on social media. You're just, everyone loves you and loves what you do. So if you don't know Kelly Davis is already, especially if you're a mental health advocate, you need to know because she is the real deal. She's not going anywhere. She is a hero. How do you like that?
Kelly Davis: Well we'll see if they don't like me by the end again.
Rudy Caseres: Well, before we get started with the tough questions that I ask now let's get some more shout outs to Jacque Christmas and Joelle Marie and again, I appreciate you Heather. Heather is nice. I know her personally. She lives nearby so I always appreciate her comments as well. So you have any questions? Feel free to ask. Heather, feel free to share with your friends who might be interested, even if they're not open about mental health. You never know who might be struggling in silence. So let's get on to your early days as a mental health advocate because obviously don't get some fault in this field without having their own mental health journey. So if you feel comfortable with that and you probably do, since you've shared your story a million times at this point, how did this journey begin?
Kelly Davis: Yeah, so my journey really goes back to being a young kid. I mean, my first, I remember my first kind of eating disorder thoughts and behaviors around seven and as a kid I always felt different from other people around me. And the way that I usually use to describe it is that it, it felt like my feelings were too big for my body and I didn't have the language to communicate with other people when I was, when I was thinking and feeling and I didn't see it in them. So I always felt emotionally out of place and also just physically uncomfortable and self conscious about my body. By the time I was 10, I had my first suicide attempt, got linked in to therapy because I mentioned to people at school that I wanted to kill myself. And from that point had all different sorts of interactions with all different levels of services and treatment, inpatient, outpatient day, day programs, IOP, a bunch of medications ended up with, well, I'll get to that, but really, really struggled throughout high school. And ended up having three suicide attempts. Uh, when I was in college, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder when I was 19 and basically hit a point where I got this message from, you know, from, from doctors, from what I was reading online from some people around me that once you are diagnosed with bipolar disorder, you have a serious mental illness. You know, maybe college isn't the place for you. Don't stress yourself out too much. Your life's going to be about symptom management now and all those different things. And, I felt like I had three choices. The first choice was I was going to keep living the way that I lived in kill myself. I could just spend the rest of my life listening to the ideas that I shouldn't push myself in a doing anything outside of my comfort zone or I could try to find any and everything I physically could to help myself. And that's what I ended up doing and that's how I got involved in the positive psychology work is I tell this story I have and now I have it as a tattoo where I was on this website called stble upon, where you basically would just press a button and it would populate different content. And as I was doing this, a picture of an elephant came up and it's sad when elephants are babies and they're in captivity. They use these chains, did keep them from running away. And when they're fully grown, they use the same chains and they could easily leave. But they've been trained to believe they can't, so they don't try. And that, that message and that idea really stuck with me. And it was like, well, I know what the other paths look like. Let me try everything and anything I can do to get better myself.And got launched into, uh, hooked up into like the peer support world and self help and recovery and all of those things. And once I started getting better, and part of that was yoga, but once I started getting better, I found out that there were other people who had been told similar things and who had felt similar ways about themselves who went on to live full, exciting, engaging lives, not only in spite of, but because of, and as a result of the things that they had been through and since I realized that I've started doing the nonprofit thing. I was president of my chapter's Active Minds and turned out to Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law. And now I've worked at Mental Health America since I graduated college for the past three and a half years. And it's really just, you know, like I can remember being a little kid and looking out at the moon and not understanding my feelings and not understanding the world around me and thinking there's so many people in this world, there have to be a few other that feel like me and I'm going to push through all of this and find them.
Kelly Davis: So that's a long way of saying, you know, this is where I came from and the work is so, so like deeply, viscerally important to me and I just feel really honored to get to do this stuff. Then any way that I can contribute and help I'm and support and share information about what, what helps and what not to do and all of that stuff isn't foreign to me.
Rudy Caseres: No, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you stayed and fought. I've noticed the people who bounce back the best are the people who just completely reject those determinations by doctors and everyone else that they're just going to be sick for the rest of their lives, never going to have a full-time career. And it's really about proving them wrong as much it is to proving it to ourselves. And in my opinion, the people who suffer the most are often the ones who accept those false determinations that they can never improve. And I hope more and more people, and I think peer support really helps with that because you have other people who have similar diagnosis, similar experience. Like no, it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to be death sentence. So hats off to you and other peer support specialist who really do great work and lifting each other up.
Kelly Davis: Yeah, I mean even on that note, I think I actually, and I know people, you know, some people really identify with the diagnoses and the labels and they find them helpful. And I think when I was younger it was really helpful for me to have something to point to and say, Oh, this, this describes what's happening to me. It's not just me by myself and the world. But I've been given I think 12 or diagnoses, so I don't really strongly identify with them. Like I understand that their usefulness and I understand that other people find them useful and like we'll reference them by for me, once I started asking questions is when I started doing better. And that's, that's not, doesn't have to be that way for everybody. But that was, it was that way for me.
Rudy Caseres: Yeah. And I mean for the most part I agree with the symptoms that I've had or the attributes as I like to say a bipolar but I am so much more than that and it's part of my identity. But I am Rudy Caseres, first and foremost, there was only one Rudy Caseres and there was only one Kelly Davis and shout outs to, uh, David Susman who is a great person featured, I think both of us on their website. Frankie and Larry, who's new on here. So welcome. This is No Restraints with Rudy Caseres, I host these shows every Wednesday except for next Wednesday, which I'll get to you at the end. And you can see all past episodes at norestraints.net. It's great place to go to. This is already episode 41 so you get lots of catching up to do, Larry McNabb. So when did you get to a place and first off, shout out to Active Minds because I am a past chapter president as well and I really credit that with getting my life together. So good work there. When did you feel like you were at a place where it's like, oh my God, like everything starting to click, I'm getting all these opportunities and like I feel like I am the master of my own journey.
Kelly Davis: Uh, you mean in the advocacy sense or in my personal recovery sense.
Rudy Caseres: That's a good question because I mean, for me and maybe to my detriment, I don't really draw a line between the two because like I talk about mental health, like I'm going to a mental health advocate 24, seven maybe I shouldn't be, but if you can delineate that, let us know.
Kelly Davis: So I think my mental health advocacy came maybe, let's see, how old was I? Maybe like a year or so into my, like for the first time feeling like I was doing, I was doing yoga, I learned a bunch of DBT skills. I took a break from, I'm sober now, but I took a break from drinking then and you know, spend time at home with my family. And then the way that it worked out for me was I was five years out from my high school suicide attempt and all of a sudden got this urge to write a blog about five things I learned since my time in the psych ward and just wrote it in my journal and was like, you know what? I'm going to submit this to Thought Catalog and just sent it over and woke up the next morning and it was approved. And then I just started about mental health all the time. So it was just like a sudden surge in blog submissions that kind of launched me, launched me into this world because before I always felt like everybody kind of knew that I had all of this stuff going on and I never, when I tried to control the narrative, it was more like it wasn't less healthy ways. So this was kind of my first attempt at saying I'm in control of my story and I get to share what I want you and this is what I want to share it, but I feel comfortable sharing with the world now and over time just got, you know, more and more stuff that I shared and said yes and say yes to almost anything and everything I'm invited to do or writers saying. And it just kind of kept building on top of one opportunity on top of another.
Rudy Caseres: Now was the substance use a form of self medication and how did you get to a place where you can be sober?
Kelly Davis: Yeah, absolutely. So I actually don't really ever talk about my sobriety. I am about to have two years, so sober. So it feels out of order because I was already doing mental health advocacy and I hadn't stopped drinking yet. But from the first time I started drinking I was just like, oh, this, I'm keeping my body and this is wonderful. I can get as messed up as I want. And then having that identity is like a party person and made me feel kind of untouchable in a way that I was always so sensitive and so worried about things. It's like if I could build that armor of identity, it felt really protective to me. So I drank for like 10 years and actually wasn't a relationship with somebody who was sober, who told me, uh, you drank like you have a problem. And it was, I was like, okay, I'm going to try to not drink. And it was really hard and in hindsight, it's wild to me that I didn't think I had, I didn't think I had a problem. I can never drink without blacking out. It was what I say is like, I didn't drink to take the edge off. I tried to disappear. It was like I think part of it was like PTSD and, and social anxiety. It like he gave me kind of relief from that, I'm from feeling like so hyper vigilant, not only that somebody was going to hurt me but felt like I was going to do something wrong or say something wrong. It's just inherently bad and unlikable. That alcohol really helped, helped me. It's not a great long term solution, but it was definitely adaptive and I was using it to get through some of the issues that I have with myself. Yeah.
Rudy Caseres: I'm glad you're sober now and you don't, I've always wondered, this may be a dumb question, but like, you know, when people announce their sobriety in public and everyone starts clapping, like does it ever feel like weird to you?
Kelly Davis: Uh, when other people do it or...? Because I admit it, too.
Rudy Caseres: Yeah. Like how does that feel? Is that just like an AA thing that you have that people are taught or, I just always -
Kelly Davis: I think it's just things that I think it's, I mean it was hard and like it was really hard. And I think people are proud of it. I also think, like for me, there've been times like I waited until I think six months sober to publicly mention that I was sober. And there have been times where I think I wanted to drink again, that I didn't want to tell people it wasn't so bad anymore. So that kind of social pressure was helpful than me. But I think it's a combination of pride and I think too, it's like I'm having that, I think the identity piece for, you know, depending on who you ask, help some people as like I'm a sober person. And I think like that shifting so hard from I'm a party person and I do wild things to I don't drink anymore. It was helpful then to have that language and to share it with other people.
Rudy Caseres: Yeah. I'm thinking like when I do my next presentation, I'm going to end with saying that I've been three years free of manic episodes and see if people start clapping.
Kelly Davis: Yeah.
Rudy Caseres: Speaking of which, let's talk about bipolar and walk me through that initial discovery and how you start presenting and those initial episodes.
Kelly Davis: So I think it was always kind of up in the air what people would diagnose me with like my, so the therapist that I saw from middle school and high school was pretty resistant to like, she would say it's a mood thing but like didn't say either, you know, either way. And there was the, I think it's confusing. I mean like when I eventually got diagnosed I went to college and had been on a bundle of different medicine since I was 14. And I was like, oh, this is a new life, new me, I'm just going to suddenly stop taking them. So I did that, which wasn't great, is like not necessarily medically advisable and this drinking really heavily, and got involved in some, some toxic relationships and I just, you know, I wasn't, I ended up getting my parents to have to spend a lot of money and made a lot of really awful decisions, and was just really like nothing, nothing like in hindsight what I was doing did not make sense. And then I crashed really hard and like four days could not get off the like could not get off of off the floor, just hours laying on the floor and could not function and there were other things exacerbating yet in my life. But, that was the first time anybody had used that word towards me, about me.
Rudy Caseres: Now is mania something you still experience?
Kelly Davis: I mean like I can see, I don't know. Like, I can see that like after I graduated college, I was suddenly really spiritual for like six months and like was constantly posting on social media and thought everything in the world made sense. So it's like I didn't have necessarily any bad fallout from that. But like now I'm like, I don't think I think this, I don't think I really think any of those things. So I don't know, like, not in a way that now I deal more with the depressive side of things and also like PTSD and association are things that I deal with a lot now. Less the kind of mania, Hypomania side.
Rudy Caseres: Now disassociation, that's something that I've experienced in the past. Can you talk about why you experienced that and how it feels going on in your head?
Kelly Davis: Yeah, so I mean, I have like one vivid memory of experiencing it in middle school during a sports game, during a field hockey game, I just have this memory of like feeling really out of body and like every, all the speed of everything felt really distorted. And I'm like, nothing. Like I didn't feel like I was there. , and then I think with me, I'm getting sober and … like I have a lot of tra(uma)… with men. And I think like I was dating somebody and I got sober at the same time and my body just reached out. So for the past two years, it's been really pretty serious with disassociation. So for me I experienced depersonalization and derealization and I feel really excited to at least get to talk about this because I've had a really hard time finding stuff about it and finding like communities with to connect with around, around this. So for me, like the depersonalization is like, I don't feel like I'm real. And then on the derealization and it's just like nothing around me feels real and like nothing feels like has any consequences and I'm just like floating and like nothing makes sense. And it's been pretty like chronic for me for the past couple of years. It's really scary because when it starts, I think, I mean, I think it's similar to like depression or at least for me, it's like once it starts, you don't know what it's going to stop again. And that's what really freaks me out. And that's part of where yoga has been so helpful for me because it's taught me how to, how to observe, how to be an observer and like disengage from immediate emotional or any kinds of reactions to things where I can say, okay, like this, this is happening now. This is a real thing that happens to other people. It's happened before. I don't know when it's going to stop, but eventually it will. And like most of the time that that helps and eventually it does stop. But I've seen limited stuff about that. I think that a lot of this stuff that people are talking about around trauma and complex trauma and developmental trauma, I really wish had been more available or known when I was younger because I think that that work would have been really helpful to me earlier. And some of the things that did happen may not have happened or may have been kind of lessened if I had those resources to learn.
Rudy Caseres: Yeah. And you mentioned the body dysmorphic disorder as well. And do you know what's at the root of that? This is something I've dealt with myself as well, and I think that's the kind of thing that no matter where you get in life, and I might be wrong, it's something that's just always there in the back of your head and it's really a lifelong struggle. How do you feel about that?
Kelly Davis: Yeah, I think part of it is like having internalized this… generally very obsessive thoughts and I think when I was younger I, for some reason linked up this idea that like on one side being beautiful with solve all my problems and on the other side, like I was an irreparably hideous, disgusting person and those ideas would just surge, like to the point where like, there were some weekends where I couldn't leave my room because they didn't want anyone to look at me. I don't necessarily know where it came from. I'm sure there's like some social components to it, but I think like one of the things that was really hard for me growing up trying to talk to people about it was that the response I got from other people was everybody's self conscious. And it was like, I literally want to cut my skin off. Like I'm not not pink. I don't know if that's self conscious. But I can't go out because I don't want people to see me. And I don't think anybody should not want to leave the house because people look like people. Right? And yeah, it's just been, it doesn't for me, it doesn't go away completely. And cause it's like I can look in the mirror and then five minutes later I look in the mirror and my face is different and my body was like 15 pounds heavier. And it's really disorienting too, because I like, don't ... have - I had few experiences, like I don't feel like I have a stable idea. Even, I mean, not that it matters. It doesn't matter as much to me now honestly that so much of my self esteem and value like is rooted in contribution. That like that has kind of helped me shift my energy and focus and kind of fight back against those things. But yeah, I don't know. It just like I feel uncertain about what I look like and I don't know if other people feel that when they don't experience body dysmorphia or not.
Rudy Caseres: Yeah. I mean, for me, I've dealt with weight fluctuations my entire life. I've been 320 pounds. I've been 130 pounds and everything in between. And for me, if I gain or if I look on the scale, I get a physical, I don't have a scale in my apartment anymore. Like I just can't deal with that. But if I gained 10 pounds, I guess that's like the end of my role. Like I might as well have gained a hundred pounds. And I know that sounds like I'm fat phobic because we live in a world where thinness equals beauty. Like even in this day and age where we celebrate curves, there's still a part of that society that's still pressures us to be thin. And so, yeah, it's something that I think I will always struggle with. I hope that I don't ever get to a place again where I'm starving myself and just completely hating my body. But yeah, I constantly look in the mirror. I constantly feel guilty if I ate a big dinner or a big dessert, but more people here talk about it, especially men. And I'm glad that we have this platform, No Restraints where I can have people on, and we can talk about this in a very real way. And something I've noticed from your social media posts is that you'll post a pictures. Let's just say that our intimate and I wanna know, like when you post these pictures, are you free to what, what, what the outcome is going to be, like, what the comments are going to be. If people are gonna think that you're just fishing for compliments, what goes on in your mind when you post pictures like that?
Kelly Davis: You got to be more specific. Do you mean like, like the yoga pictures that I used to post? Do you mean like the like word, like the way that I am talking about my experience? Like what?
Rudy Caseres: So if you're posting a picture where you're not even wearing a, like you could see what's under your shirt, basically. You're very, very tight clothing. Let's just say that.
Kelly Davis: Okay. Huh. I don't know. I mean like it's a weird thing. I think that I've struggled a lot with my body recently, so I don't know that I do that as much now. But I don't know. It like fluctuates. I don't ever feel like I'm fishing for compliments. And I don't really care what people have to say about it. So yeah, I dunno. I'm definitely like, it's your body do it everyone kind of person.
Rudy Caseres: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I was still working up the courage to do like a shirtless selfie. I'll get there. But moving on you're still in your 20s and like I'm getting old. I'm 31, gonna turn, 32 in a couple months so you have more to look forward to than me. So where do you see yourself going? You're obviously in a good place in your life professionally, it looks like personally as well. Where do you see yourself going and how do you see yourself? Like, I guess I'm always working on that self care and always I'm working on your mental health.
Kelly Davis: Yeah, I'm not that much. I am 26, so I'm not like early twenties. I mean, I don't see like, I mean, so I just finished a certificate in applied positive psychology. And I'm in an applied positive psychology coaching program right now. So I'm starting to teach workshops on those skills and we'll be starting to work with people. It's one-on-one and in groups, has coaching. But I think that I'll always be involved. I don't see any future where I'm not in this field. I think I'll always be working from a perspective of elevating lived experience voices and trying to create and share resources for other people. Because I just really believe in that the values and ideas of communities of people. So I don't know, I mean, 'm definitely going to stay in this field. I'm really interested in working with young people, with lived experience. I think that so much of my identity got formed around the idea of being a sick person and that I wasn't really taught skills that would have helped me a lot. And I wasn't taught skills in the context of if, you know, other people who were like me who were in recovery or, you know, whenever they want to call it. I didn't feel that sense of empowerment. It didn't, it wasn't building skills. So any ways that I can contribute to kind of this, you know, shared knowledge and shared empowerment and ways that we can work together to kind of make the world better for everyone. I'm really firm believer. Like why like positive, especially as like I don't have before my struggles. So like the recovery word, like I don't, I'm not recovering to anything. Like this is just me and like I was never different. So I liked positive psychology because it's this idea of flourishing, of like all of the like bringing different elements and parts of your life together to create a life, a good life for yourself. And what I especially like about it is it's action oriented. So like, I don't think the point of what we do is to get people to get by, right? Like, I think the point is to give everybody the skills so that we can all come together and make everything better and, and really, really like, I want to be involved on both levels. Like I want to work directly with people, but I also think that if we just bandaid things, there's too many things that are underlying all of this stuff that are a lot of the real problems that need to be addressed. So I’m just excited about, you know, I identify with this as more of like an activist movement and want to stay involved. So not just, you know, working individually with people, but so that everybody can get better. We can create a fair and more equitable world for them, too.
Rudy Caseres: That's, I agree. No, and I feel like we're headed towards that. I feel a seismic shift in our society and I hope it keeps moving forward. Last question before we bring it home, you said you worked with a lot of youth. What is something that you tell the youth that you work with or something that you would tell young advocates watching this? Yeah. What is your hope for the future? What is something that you want to see them carry on?
Kelly Davis: Hmm. That's interesting. I don't know. Like I've heard a lot of people talk about how they can't. So I recognize that I'm many ways have lots of privilege but am horrified when I hear stories of young people who want to do this work who are told that identifying in will ruin their careers. So if I, you know, I just had a conversation with the student and she was like, at my internship they told me that if I talked about my diagnosis, it's like a death, the kiss of death. And I really believe that like we as a community, it's really important to identify it because we have the answer. It's like one of the, one of the things that I say a lot is is in other fields, right? Like, Amazon's not going to make the product that the consumers don't want. It just doesn't make sense. And like mental health for some reason is the only world where the consumer is wrong because they don't want what's happening. And like this idea that is just so important for us, identify it and say, no, this is wrong because you're not measuring the right things. You don't care about the right things. And we're the ones who need to come in and really be involved in and restructuring and redoing everything. So it's not, you know, does this work on your diagnostic criteria? It's 'do people like me live well?' , so I would say like keep fighting. And the best piece of advice I think that I use, that I got from my dad is 'all they can say is no.' So like always ask if you want to do something. I always ask, I say yes to everything that people ask me to do. And a lot of the things that I've, oh, the opportunities that I've had are just like cold outreach to people and most of the time no one responds, but when they do it, yeah, it's good.
Rudy Caseres: No, I love to hear that. I like how well we're getting along. Like there's no, there's no conflict at all. Which some people want. But I'm glad that we agree on so much. This is our first time talking face-to-face. So that's great. And before we get into your final words on, let's give some last shout outs. Heather with a great comment. 'Thanks for talking about dysmorphia and disassociation. I have a few thoughts I entertain for myself. 1) life is change - change is one thing I can count on - I am safe and I can't get it wrong. 2) In any moment I am someone's goal weight and someone's feared weight. In this moment I am enough. I will never be younger than now, and this moment contains all my power and choices, so I choose self love.' Much love to you, Heather. You’re doing great work in more ways than one. Shout out to Barbara who is always watching from Alaska. I appreciate that as well. David Susman says, 'your focus on strength, empowerment and growth is so important.' And again, Barbara says, 'I'm glad you're beginning a new phase of generational learning and endurance. Thanks for sharing. The old school doesn't cut it anymore.' Awe, there's still, there's still use for you. Joelle Marie says, 'talking about my experience has brought me nothing but good things in terms of personal progression, moving towards goals. Don't let others set your priorities. I guess?' Great comments, everyone. And if you're watching this later on the day, I get it, later on the week, please feel free to still leave questions and comments. I will make sure to get to all of you. Also drop some links to stuff that Kelly Davis has been featured in and how to get in contact with her. And that brings us to final words, words of wisdom. How people can get in touch with you, how people can stay connected with all the amazing things that you're doing? The screen is yours.
Kelly Davis: Yeah, so a lot of my work I post on Instagram, so my Instagram handle is KellyABDavis. You can also feel free to add me on Facebook. I should probably get more things. I should probably get like a, I dunno, something like a Facebook page or something to, you know, or whatever to organize everything. But that's where I am right now. If you're interested in positive psychology, I am going to start some trainings on positive or post-traumatic growth, strengths, growth mindset and self compassion in May that I'm really excited about. So yeah, if you follow me, you can learn more about how to sign up for those. And final words… I don't know. Huh… This is a great question. I don't know. I think we need everybody and when everybody, when we make sure people get adequate resources and support, we can make everything else better.
Rudy Caseres: And on that note, thank you so much Kelly Davis for agreeing to do this. I'm glad we were finally able to sync our schedules up and like most of my guests, I hope we can connect in person someday in our travels, in our advocacies. So we share common goals and I appreciate that. I appreciate the work you're doing and I know that you're in this for the long haul. So I look forward to following your journey and future amazing things going on in your professional life. So again, thank you all for watching No Restraints with Rudy Caseres. Thank you again to Kelly Davis. Next week I'll be in Dallas for the HealtheVoices conference. So I'll be able to interview at least one guest, maybe even two or three live from the conference in Dallas, Texas. So check out for that. It'll probably be Thursday or Friday because I leave Thursday, so there won't be an episode Wednesday. Sorry about that. But it'll be worth the wait. Until then... Take care. Enjoy your week. Enjoy each other because it's for your own good.